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Post by nikolaithebeast on Jul 16, 2014 14:38:53 GMT
Time to rile up arguments. Now, I've been sitting here all morning, pondering how many times I've seen the term "Fear RP" and how people are supposedly ignoring it by attacking their attackers, overpowering people more well equipped, or whatever the hell else. Except, I think they are mistaking "Being Afraid" for "Fear". For some reason, these people seem to think that 'fear' means 'lockdown' or 'giving up'. I don't know WHO told them this, but that's not how fear works, that's how being high on a bad batch of LSD is. I'll paint a picture. A caveman, barely understanding the concept of fire, is foraging for berries in a forest. He hears a rustle. He runs. He find's himself surrounded by wolves, who aim to make him their meal. What does the man do? For some reason, people think 'shut down and cry'. The answer, a MAJORITY (don't go eating my butt over how your character is, or how you are) of all humans will react in NEARLY the exact same way, such so that you could make a flow chart. In fact, I'll make a ghetto one right now. 1: A threat is upon you 2: Can threat be ran away from? If so, end flow. 3: If not, acquire means to end threat 4: End threat, or perish 5: If another threat exists, repeat. To continue this horribly long rant, We will make a brief definition of words, for the sake of simplifying this.
Fear:
The act of being placed in a situation of life and death.
Now, technically, Fear is a broad term, but for this argument, I am going to sanctify fear as being that of life and death peril. Not it's actual definition, but it's simpler then re-elaborating deadly situations every time.
Another situation.
A man has a shotgun pointed at you in the bar. The doors are bolted. He's clearly about to shoot you.
At this exact moment, your brain turns off. Well, not exactly off, but higher thought is lost, in favor of, as said, base instinct. That man has a shotgun. You have nothing. He's in front of the door. He's about to shoot you. So, you need to take that shotgun. So you react. You might try to get the shotgun, go for cover, beat him to death with a wrench, whatever. But it's better then not reacting.
In any situation such as this, most life will constantly take to the same exact flow of general actions.
UNLESS.
they are restrained or incapacitated.
This, is probably what people think of, as Fear Rp, a person who has lost their will, due to a inability to save themselves by being stopped.
It's much, like a computer program. A very complicated one, but simple in the same fashion. If, a program is unable to do something, then the program will fail. Of course, this is working under programs without fail-safes and such, but you get the idea.
When a person is restrained, or unable to properly counter-react to a threat, it's much like a program without a way to do it's function. That person tends to just shut down, or attempt to brute force the situation (struggling against restraint's, that sort of thing). Now, this is all obvious, and just your normal run of the mill knowledge about proper fear and all that. However, the issue I feel is that you see people getting negative responses to a character fighting against their attackers, even when overwhelmed. Guess what, that's how people work. If you wave a fucking sword in a mans face, and cut off his arm, he'll just keep beating the shit out of you with the stump, and no I'm not making this up. that's an article link, by the way. More to the point, people playing do experience a minor reaction of this sort, but FAR LESS powerful then in real life. In that split moment of someone attacking you in this game, you can't pause, so people do react on a very base level of "Resolve issue, use force" Obviously, certain people with mental conditions, will find themselves not fitting this feeling, but even people who are heavily suicidal or depressed will still immediately react in the same way, not because THEY DON'T want to die, but because THEY DON'T even think about it, they just respond. I know I'm gonna see "But blah blah blah, you shouldn't fight a man with a laser sword with a crowbar" or "Blah blah blah, how would you know about how people react in a life or death situation", to which I have no urge to explain, or "Blah blah blah, I smell of butts and I think Tf2 sucks, so I'm going to a certain place in hell reserved for my kind" |
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Post by deatacita on Jul 16, 2014 14:42:21 GMT
I'm honestly gonna agree with this. While some people might 'shut down' each person's reaction is different and one of the things I've always thought is that when you're 99% sure you're about to be killed. What the fuck do you have to lose anyway? That being said, not everyone follows this, not everyone is linear in their responses, some people WOULD just give up, some people would do anything to get away. It's a personal reaction and that alone makes this difficult to judge about.
Fear-RP is important in my eyes though, because otherwise people just robust the fuck out of you. I'm all for resisting captors, but don't just fucking gank them. RP it as-well as they RPed capturing/doing what the fuck ever to you.
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Post by frances on Jul 16, 2014 15:47:33 GMT
This is a very interesting post, and certainly an opinion to consider. However, two counter-arguments, very quickly.
-What Dea said. You still have to RP it.
-The issue with people "breaking" fear RP isn't simply people acting rashly in life-or-death situation. Most of the time, it tends to be about people acting like heroes when their lives isn't at risk. Going into an alien-infested outpost alone, running into zombie-filled hallways to destroy everything you see, busting into a hostage situation with a mech, fully uncoordinated, to kill all the hostage-takers. These people act like they're certain to be successful in their endeavours, and like they have no fear of death, because either 1. They're sure to succeed because of game mechanics, at least until admins (sometimes) screw them over or 2. They don't really care if they die like a hero, because pixelated spessmen.
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mrimatool
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Post by mrimatool on Jul 16, 2014 17:21:57 GMT
Frances get's all my +1's for his point. And Nik I love this post, it's a lot to think about,
I have a few characters, that are very self serving and would do anything to survive.
I have one who is quite heroic, which is usually a bad thing, but it's Michael Fracking Tool, he's been that way for over a year, there's a reason people cried when he died.
I have characters who are more lawful, they have morales and standards that they refuse to compromise, (No Michael is not one of these.)
And then I have people who aren't used to their life being threatened everyday, and would either freeze up, or beg for their life.
So yes, in conclusion I think Nik's post is great, but Frances is correct on what annoys us about people not RP'ing fear
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farcry11
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Post by farcry11 on Jul 16, 2014 19:25:43 GMT
Someone is pointing a shotgun at you in real life.
Tell me right now what you would do:
Grab the barrel, yank it out of the person's hand, and shoot them with it?
OR
Do whatever they say because they have a GUN on you. You'll die if you run, and you'll probably die too if you try to grab their shit. Keep your hands in the air, stay on your knees, and /listen to your fucking gun-wielding captor/.
We do NOT become superheroes in life-or-death situations. Most people would NOT fight to the death if there was the faintest chance you could live otherwise. Start acting like it.
(Oh, and by the way, if it furthers RP? Let people kill your character. You can always ask for a respawn, and people will think better of you for not being all "my character can't die because reasons")
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mrimatool
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Post by mrimatool on Jul 16, 2014 19:36:15 GMT
Also Farcry, I think Nik is referring to when you know they're going to kill you, not when they're bossing you about with a gun pointed at you.
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Post by farcry11 on Jul 16, 2014 20:43:06 GMT
Even if they DID state their intentions, disarming and killing your assailant that outmatches you in every way is a REALLY shitty thing to do both ICly and OOCly, no matter how you color it- and I'm always going to call it Rambo and bad RP, because that's what it is.
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mrimatool
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Post by mrimatool on Jul 16, 2014 20:48:47 GMT
Yeah, but depends who it is, if I saw Balegrim's character do it.. I'd be like. "Oh that's normal" but if I saw Carlos do it, I'd be like.. "WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON!?"
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Post by farcry11 on Jul 16, 2014 20:52:51 GMT
But see, the thing is is that Nik is saying it would make sense for anyone to do it, when really no one should be doing it.
Bale's character was about as special snowflake as you can get, so he's not really a great example.
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mrimatool
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Post by mrimatool on Jul 16, 2014 21:13:01 GMT
I don't see a problem with it, as long as the fear rper roleplays failing as they are obviously not going to beat an intensely trained syndicate agent just because of some shitty game mechanics.
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farcry11
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Post by farcry11 on Jul 16, 2014 21:14:22 GMT
Yeah, if they fail, that makes sense. If they succeed, it makes no sense at all.
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Post by nikolaithebeast on Jul 17, 2014 5:29:52 GMT
No, it's really not. Did you not read the article about the fat guy who BEAT THE FUCK OUT OF TWO PEOPLE WITH HIS OWN STUMP OF AN ARM. I wasn't kidding about that. That guy looked like a fat grandpa who would feed you cookies when you visited him, and he beat the shit out of a cocaine fulled drug addict WITH A KATANA, and his equally drug addled friend who had a friggin hammer. The difference, in this situation, is that the person with the gun at their face, has adrenaline, and various other chemicals running through their brain. They, for all intensive purposes, now have more then double their own strength, their pain reflex is now nearly missing, and are now functioning with the mental capacity of any animal that cannot outspeed it's attacker. The person with the gun, at best, has a hard on. These reflexes only kick in WHEN they feel absolutely fucked. So, in this situation, someone half their weight could still gleem victory, because the person with the gun won't be reaching this sort of feeling right away. You can't act like people are Pokemon, farcry. It isn't THAT simple, coming from a person who had a situation of needing to disarm a person twice my size, It's very much possible, because the man with the hypothetical gun doesn't expect them to fight back, because people pointing guns at you, usually don't think pretty hard about whats going to happen. And to frances, your not who I'm talking about. Yeah, they should RP. but, time constraints make that pretty hard to take the time to nikolaithebeast when someones about to shoot you, ya know? |
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Post by farcry11 on Jul 17, 2014 7:47:50 GMT
You're essentially saying, "Throw fear RP to the wind because adrenaline surge". Screw that. That's a really bad idea, and in my opinion, bad RP and banworthy. That's just my stance on the situation.
Supply all the articles of fluke situations that you want, but it won't change my opinion.
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Post by nikolaithebeast on Jul 17, 2014 10:52:17 GMT
You're essentially saying, "Throw fear RP to the wind because adrenaline surge". Screw that. That's a really bad idea, and in my opinion, bad RP and banworthy. That's just my stance on the situation. Supply all the articles of fluke situations that you want, but it won't change my opinion. No? I said "People will always fight back, and are liable to have a chance to win, even if out matched" WHAT DO YOU EXPECT of a fight, exactly? You want a person to lose a fight, for the fucking roleplay of it? When they might actually win? Theres a point between roleplay and gameplay, and you seem to want to be all the way on the roleplay side. At a very obvious point, gameplay can make up for our inability to create roleplay in combat. If you CAN knock the shotgun out of the mans hand, you are not expected to let him pick it back up, are you? no, you pick it up and shoot him. Or he knocks it out of your hand, or beats you with a weapon, or...WHATEVER. |
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Post by Covert0ddity on Jul 17, 2014 11:29:39 GMT
There's an instinctual human, and terran life in general, action of this, named the "fight or flight' syndrome.
This is spurred by the adrenaline rush that courses through your veins whenever something dangerous or very very exciting happens. When it does, your body is prepared to do whatever it needs to, to survive.
Generally, people run. It's a standard thing. If they are unable to run, then they fight. If they are unable to fight, eg, something unfightable, then they submit.
For example:
An operative is pointing a gun at a man in an open space. He runs, and dodges a bullet. Literally.
An operative has a man at gunpoint while in a closed area. The man fights the operative, and likely dies, but at least he went down trying.
An operative has a man tied down on a chair in a closed area while having the man at gunpoint. The man cannot do anything, so opts to doing what the operative says.
To be honest, this is not a good example. Based on how your character is and acts, they could submit at the first example, or fight.
OOcly, however, it's good etiquette to comply with your assailent. Due to SS13's nature, it is hard to tell what you, or your character, would do at that exact moment in that exact time with the exact setting, because it's 2d, text based, and cartoonish. Not saying that people can roleplay it out well and correctly, just that is is difficult.
Now, back to the etiquette. It is generally funner to comply with the antag. The antag has the rule to not only play to see the shiny green text... but you also must play not to see the red text. Make fun RP. Please.
And, generally, death brings /great/ RP. I love seeing bad things, especially death, happen to my characters. Maybe I'm demented, but I love it happening.
Anyway. I'll stop talking.
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Post by nikolaithebeast on Jul 17, 2014 15:57:14 GMT
Covert your mistaking the hypothetical situation, let me clarify the equation.
This man is not aiming to maim, but he's aiming to kill, which is most lame.
A man under fire will always take to fight, when they simply cannot take flight.
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Post by deatacita on Jul 17, 2014 18:42:56 GMT
Covert your mistaking the hypothetical situation, let me clarify the equation. This man is not aiming to maim, but he's aiming to kill, which is most lame. A man under fire will always take to fight, when they simply cannot take flight. Psychologist here. Nope, all my nope. The social and environmental characteristics of your life and childhood effect this immensely. A Human MAY fight if he cannot flee, BUT. Not all will, lumping ' everyone will fight you' together is just as stupid as 'everyone will cower'. |
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Post by Chaznoodles on Jul 17, 2014 19:02:27 GMT
If someone's pointing a gun at you, damned if I'll watch and let you try and disarm the person. There's a gun pointed at you aboard a space station, for christ's sake.
Let's put this into perspective. This is a space station, built to maintain atmosphere. Say, due to you trying to disarm the gunman, the bullet goes through a window, thereby venting all the air and causing your death. Let's also consider that you'll most likely get your face blown off if you do try. Putting this 'fight' reflex into place, which most people do, brings it down to who can click the fastest, rather than who can actually roleplay. I had an experience with this last week, and it was not pleasant for me at all. It ruined the round for me, due to the lack of roleplay.
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Post by farcry11 on Jul 17, 2014 22:17:49 GMT
Skull's edit: MASSIVE image, click spoilers to look. |
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Post by Skull132 on Jul 17, 2014 22:20:19 GMT
Covert your mistaking the hypothetical situation, let me clarify the equation. This man is not aiming to maim, but he's aiming to kill, which is most lame. A man under fire will always take to fight, when they simply cannot take flight.No. No. No. No. And no. Freezing in a combat situation is a very real threat in any military force. And does a live combat situation not mean being under fire? Which is a tangible threat? I've actually seen this effect myself, while not under live fire, it was a practice combat scenario, with blank ammunition and live opposition. My teammate, while he did not freeze, he became completely phased out of the situation. Any order I provided to him, he could not pay attention to. I was literally yelling at him, multiple times, to get him to execute a simple action. And even then, he was unable to commit to it. Further more, executing a CQB drill in the same scenario, I found myself very phased out as I got ambushed walking up a staircase. I knew what I was SUPPOSE to do, but for a few moments, I blanked completely. By that time, I was walking back down the staircase, as I'd been "shot". The word you are looking for is "drilling." Drilling someone to get used to being under fire. Normal individuals lack this drilling. |
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