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Post by nbielinski on Aug 6, 2014 20:46:12 GMT
Good evening folks, I hope you're all doing well. There is one issue that I have had problems with in time and I understand its less an issue here but it would be a good point to have it none the less.
Now I play atmospheric technician because I love having a broken system I can both work around and complain about...for some reason its just fun to me. What is not fun is having to drop everything midway through the round because a scientist that has just started, forgot what button is used to open a plasma canister and has now light on fire, Research and Development. Not only does this mean that the atmos team (Usually just me in most cases) has to run to RnD and try and keep everyone from running in and playing hero, to douse the fire that has been caused.
What I propose is simple, a canister lock that can be attached/built onto a canister, this lock is alot like the locks on APC's and requires someone with an ID of Atmospheric Tech, Engineer, or Head to swipe and unlock the functions of the canister. And allow for the use in filling tanks or opening up the canister itself.
As I said, its not as much of an issue in day to day life on the station, lots of folks agree that things like flooding the hallways with plasma and filling the station with N20 are shitty things to do as a traitor. But even then we still have the occasional troll that lights shit on fire for the fun of it.So that is my proposition, a canister lock that can be attached or built onto a canister, allowing them to be locked and not be opened by the regular staff.
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gollee
Lore Master 
I write things
Posts: 828 
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Post by gollee on Aug 6, 2014 21:47:36 GMT
Possibility? A line of code that checks whether a tank is in the canister, and pops up a second window asking for confirmation? That would stop accidental plasma and gas leaks, especially for engineers.
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Post by nbielinski on Aug 6, 2014 22:02:04 GMT
That would be a start, something that asks folks if they really REALLY want to open up that canister full of burning plasma without a tank inserted. But I'm thinking of something more...no offence in reality I would love a second layer of monotony to keep folks from just flipping open canisters and lighting themselves on fire, but I'm thinking along the lines of a electronic lock that keeps the canister from opening at all without a proper ID swipe
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Post by veneke on Aug 6, 2014 22:34:30 GMT
I'm not sure if an ID lock will help with this. Scientists will need their ID to work on canisters, as will Engineering, and Atmos. Also, you can't really lock down O2 canisters as those are needed for refilling the emergency tank, and/or your EVA tank. Mining would get very annoyed if they couldn't go out with a full tank of 02. So, the ID lock won't prevent the people most likely from opening them.
I understand that it's a kind of in-game pop, and it's a better solution than the warning pop-up we see from the emergency shutters. The problem, however, is that 99 times out of a 100 this extra step is just an annoyance that won't actually help. Traitors will still open the canister with an id-swipe/pop-up. If they don't have access, and are still planning messing with the atmos, my guess is that they're going to get an atmos id from somewhere. Also, this doesn't remove the possibility of a misclick or mistake with an ids-wipe/pop-up that you instantly dismiss and/or operate as a matter of course.
I must say though, I'm puzzled to see this being suggested. Atmos grief/mistakes with canisters is not something you see terribly often on this server. There's an issue with everyone playing hero during an emergency, and then running for the shuttle rather than call ERT the moment things look a little sketchy, but neither of those things will be solved by this.
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Post by nbielinski on Aug 6, 2014 23:22:40 GMT
I am not suggesting a canister lock on EVERY single canister, that must have slipped my mind while writing, I apologize. What I suggest is a physical object, much like a firelock ID chip or other item. That can be placed on canisters to require an ID swipe. This will make it more difficult for traitors and griefers to get into the canisters. And the pop up screen isnt just for any old time you open the canister, only if there is no tank inside. Meaning that both the lock and the canister pop up would be contextually used. And to be fair, I have personally been in many situations where a scientist attempts to fill a plasma tank and ends up flooding science and then the rest of the station. Then when I ask the admins, "Why did he do that." The response is, many times, "I did not know the tank was out of the canister."
And I completely agree that folks head for the hills when things get hairy. But frankly, not once did I say that this would solve an issue of that magnitude of logic RP not being used. It seems irrelevant you bringing that large an issue up.
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Post by veneke on Aug 7, 2014 0:08:08 GMT
Sorry, I misread your OP. You want the canister lock to be something built and has to be manually placed on each individual canister? I'd be very surprised if anyone bothered with that. I'm less familiar with Science but it would have to be a very bored/unimaginative engineering department, or a really long round, for something like this to be done to the canisters in atmos/secure storage. We're talking like a priority below adding an extra lightbulb in some of the darker areas of the station. It's not interesting, and it doesn't really perform any vital function. As a bit of RP, and an optional 'here's more stuff!' it's not a bad idea. It makes sense that there's a way to completely lock down a canister, like the plasma tank in secure storage. It won't hinder a traitor or griefer though. If they've managed their way into secure storage/atmos, then an extra ID lock isn't going to prove much of an issue. They probably already have an ID, or access at the very least, if they've made it that far. As for accidents, this won't prevent those. Assuming they've built the thing (which is a long shot), they've actually got to act on the pop-up. You're talking about people who forgot to check two lines above the open/close buttons to see if the tank was in there. This pop-up might, maybe, help... but the kind of people it looks likely to help are also the ones least likely to install it, much less heed its warning. I also think it's fair to point out that accidents have their place in SS13 too. Sure, atmos accidents are one of the worst, but there's something to be said for the idea that things can go wrong on station, and the engineering department's whole gameplay is built around fixing those accidents. Atmos accidents can potentially end the round, but so too can others, and dealing with those accidents is part and parcel of the game. As for people trying to be heroes and/or stupidly panicking when things get bad, you brought it up in the OP: ...Not only does this mean that the atmos team (Usually just me in most cases) has to run to RnD and try and keep everyone from running in and playing hero, to douse the fire that has been caused. So, er, I figured I'd agree with you but point out that this id lock thing wouldn't fix that. |
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Post by nbielinski on Aug 7, 2014 0:40:16 GMT
Well this obviously inst for everybody then, sure if you feel that the entire idea is monotonous, then feel free to shoot down the idea in general. But I personally feel that I have had issues such as this before. None the less, prior to something such as a canister lock, a welding tool and a wrench could get a man a tank of Plasma or N20. With it added they would have to find a way to get INTO the area manually then undo the lock with an ID. This isn't to keep them away from doing the act, it just bumps up the difficulty.
When they made Dark Souls II, they did not ramp up difficulty in order to make players NOT want to play the game. Difficulty is there to make people WANT TO TRY. As I see it, its much too easy to get a canister of plasma and either use it for bombs or use it for a flamethrower, both of which someone can get rather easily, I just feel that even though places like engineering, security, science and medical have had updates to keep them more secure....the station decides that keeping highly volatile chemicals in tanks is a great idea for storage, considering a traitor can knock one away from a atmospheric tech and use it to flood security so they can turn the station into their own fair ground. So I am not saying, "Lets make it impossible for traitors to get the chemicals in the canisters."
I'm just saying, if its difficult to get face melting acid, and its difficult to get laser weaponry, and its difficult to wrangle the singularity into a frenzy. Why should it be easy to do a bit of hacking and get your hands on a tank of plasma, something the entire station is built around researching.
And as for incidents occurring where Scientist McFuckup decides to NOT CHECK if the canister is secured with a tank, and then opens the canister. Wouldn't it be easier for all of us to judge his intent if we're able to say, "Well the pop up was there why didn't you listen?" And sure in some cases this will be an extra second or two the person will have to wait in order to open the valuable canister of oxygen, but that would be the trade off so that RnD can actually function without burning down. As that leads, more times than I can count, to the entire head team saying that the entire station is flawed and should be evacuated.
*Side note* Have you ever HAD to replace the atmosphere in RnD? I'm not being condescending I'm literallysaying that it is impossible as many of the lights and sounds of the area do not turn off without a full reset of the system...that means emergency shuttle and all. Why allow a bug to ruin the round of the department?
Finally, as for heroics. I'm sorry I was just saying that the entire feeling of the crew gets into a frenzy, frankly I do not wish to change the minds of the crew. I'm again sorry if that is what I seemed to be saying. But in reality I just wish for those issues NEVER to arise.
Why not code in the pop up for canisters like so:
Is the canister plasma/N2/CO2/Fuel/Danger? > If Yes Continue > Show Pop Up
> If No Continue > Do Not Show Pop Up
And the canisters are already there, why not just create a variable that PUTS the lock on them from the start. I know this is asking alot but if we are finding ways around this, I will have to defend the idea by putting more blocks up. Creating a variable that a few canisters spawn with, that puts a lock on automatically, will allow places like atmos and science to not worry about putting them on, themselves. As for an ID.....we could make it so that scientists, Atmos tech's, engineers, and heads can open them...I mean the ID clearance can be varied as I recall, so you don't have to drag atmospheric tech's around the station to open up canisters.
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Post by veneke on Aug 7, 2014 6:26:43 GMT
I think the idea is better if it's automatically included at round start. Adding safety functions, after round start, is not really something Engineering does on a regular basis. I can't count the number of times a Chief has left secure storage open, even after being alerted to the fact. Don't even mention that almost nobody ever reduces the electrical output on the wires after the APCs have charged. Honestly, I play Engineering pretty regularly (and exclusively on this server), and I generally like those blokes... but I wouldn't trust them with the safety of the station.
As for atmos being bugged, especially in Toxins - yeah, in some situations it's simply impossible to fix the problems of an opened canister, nevermind if the contents are set alight. That's a bug that should be fixed though, and this id lock thing won't do that.
Honestly, I'd be more inclined to agree with you if you tried to make it so that antags couldn't get at canisters. I posted in the antag thread where they talked about atmos and, frankly, if you are a antag and fucking with atmos you're doing something horribly wrong. If you're a griefer, and fucking with atmos, then I expect your ass to get permanently banned. As for Scientist McFuckup (awesome name btw) the intent of someone messing with atmos is usually pretty clear.
This extra safety option makes for great RP and a nice little feature, so I don't object to its inclusion. It's also miles better than a safety pop-up. Have you played on BestRP? They have two safety pop-ups on canisters... it's irritating as hell, and it doesn't stop griefers, antags, or even accidents.
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Post by Skull132 on Aug 7, 2014 7:22:40 GMT
Yes and no, I'm conflicted.
OOCly, it serves the purpose of stopping some griefers (those who would lack ID access to certain cans) from releasing their contents, as well as providing an added layer of security for the good folks at science (which, I am one of them).
Now, a few issues/points/questions.
First off, I'm going to go out there, and say that I do not want to restrict antag access to dangerous gasses. The reason for it is, that antags on our server are rather deflated to begin with, and removing options from them may increase the issue. Now, I am not saying I condone the usage of wide-spread atmospherics fuckery from antags, but I do condone fun things, like filling someone's emergency O2 tank with burning CO2, or plasma (even if never done). So, with that note, if such a device is created, it'd be either hackable, or emaggable (probably the latter, to fit purpose).
Secondly, if a griefer wants to atmos grief, 9/10 times, what job will they pick? Atmos engineer. If they want to release plasma in the hallways, 9/10 times, what job will they pick? Scientist. So the point of it counter grief, while nice and pretty, is, in my eyes, relatively moot (not that it being moot is a bad thing, for this idea).
Thirdly. I actually kind of like the idea, but would like to impliment it in a fashion of a device which can be secured to a can (certain cans spawn with them), and requires an ID swipe to unlock. Once unlocked, you can do whatever (whatever, without any further hinderance), and then relock it.
As far as pop-ups go, I'd rather not apply them to the masses. As a player who plays Science on a regular basis, it would get annoying as all hell. I'm certain, at least 75% certain, that it'd reach a point where I'd rather roast myself with burning CO2 than deal with pop-ups. The only condition I'd accept them, would be as a preference thing that can be toggled.
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Post by nbielinski on Aug 7, 2014 13:52:01 GMT
I'll answer a few of those points in reversed order:
As I said, the pop ups could be a simple code of checking if the canister is dangerous or not. If the canister is indeed a plasma canister, CO2 canister, or any other dangerous chemical, and has no tank inserted....and maybe if the canister isn't connected...if that type of coding is possible. Not every time you open an O2 tank. So don't go off flinging yourself, or the idea, into a gas chamber.
I concur, a physical object makes a bit more sense.
It is true that a griefer or troll will pick a job where they have access to tanks of plasma and other dangerous chemicals, sure, but I'm not only betting but I am hoping that there will be a competent co-worker nearby to help in stopping them...or at least reporting them. As science is a popular job as I understand. Atmospherics...well...not so much but in any case I doubt a griefer or troll will know the specifics if they are joining simply to get banned....if you saw this being implemented and you had just joined, how would you know how to open a canister in the halls? I'm just saying it would take some time for a griefer to realize what to do, and I know the admin team would be quicker on the draw than him.
Well I need to debate that fact. I understand there are some experience differences between us but most times I am on the server, a traitor has taken to an easier route,the wrench to the skull or the laser to the chest. It would take a very robust individual to make home made bombs . Yet with a pair of gloves, a multitool, a screwdriver, and a crowbar, someone can make and fuel a flamethrower. Personally I see atmospherics being used less in your plans, such as poisoning a persons emergency tank (Which frankly I find a bit of a shot in the dark seeing as how if my tank started burning my flesh, I just throw it away as quick as possible.) And more of it being a "Fuck you station" flooding tool. Though again, I bend to the experience of others in some cases.
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