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Post by PumpkingSlice on Jun 9, 2014 21:07:09 GMT
If my memory is correct, I do recall staff doing this role, as an 'event' of sorts. Which they would come in as a NanoTrasen representative, (armed obviously). They would basically do all of this and sometimes more.
As previous comments have stated, there really is no need for a permanent factor which will disrupt the chain of command. While I do understand their job isn't to directly intervene unless required, to be more of a watching shadow you could say, it just wont be worth it in the long run, and it WILL end up like IAA's, ignored. There is no doubt about it.
Even without this or IAA's, it is expected of the security force themselves to ensure SoP is carried out, especially by the captain/HoS due to implants. What makes it a beauty though, is the fact that mistakes can occur. SoP can be broken. Action can be taken or it can be ignored. Said actions taken may possibly evolve later to interesting circumstances. Along with an IC factor of fun, there is also an OOC factor of fun. It creates conversation and memories within the community.
The question to be asked here is, will such a job stated with such responsibility, provide that level of interest? Or will it simply create lots of unsatisfied comments?
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mrimatool
Lore Developer
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Posts: 703
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Post by mrimatool on Jun 9, 2014 21:19:18 GMT
Skull and Volt voiced my concerns perfectly.. I really hate this, sorry Dea, it seems like a horrible idea.
Sent from my HTC Desire 300
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farcry11
Moderator
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Post by farcry11 on Jun 9, 2014 21:27:39 GMT
Not a horrible idea by any stretch of the word. It just needs some working out.
IAs are useless, anyways. No one listens to them- but people might listen to the L.O.
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Post by Rusty Shackleford on Jun 9, 2014 23:59:53 GMT
Who watches the Watchmen?
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Post by deatacita on Jun 10, 2014 8:56:24 GMT
Gonna go through and answer every comment now. The positioning next to arrivals with flimsy reinforced glass covering it up, and the presence of an all-access ID is worrying. As previously stated, this particular office was made with little effort or planning, it is not intended to be the end result. The end result could be much more formidable.
Sounds like IA with more power nice idea but it would end poorly, IA are supposed to report heads of staff also. -1 Sent from my HTC Desire 300 This is a poorly worded comment with little evidence to support it. While the I.A. are -supposed- to, any competent member of our community knows that the people who play I.A. don't do it well. And people who would do it well, don't play it. Because it is an ignored role with quite literally no power. Hmm.. I personally, don't think ERT gear should be provided for them. I mean, it is their job to make sure SoP is being followed by heads.. But having gear to become an aid for an emergency, just doesn't seem right. Since they will be a target due to their position, I'd recommend something more along the lines of SWAT level or lower (such as a bullet proof vest and not a full set of SWAT gear). Realistically, security should be enough of a force for them not to be harmed. And again, they're there to advise right? Even with an accepted whitelist, people will make a common mistake and misunderstand the position, using their rank and gear to enforce their views. what 'could' replace them interfering in an emergency situation, is a gtfo mechanism. I'm sure NT would rather bail out someone with such loyalty and skill, rather then have them deal with a threat. In conclusion, the idea behind this is very nice and can stand for a more legal way to deal with bad IAA's. Heck I'd say grant them control of an IAA due to the major similarities of work line. I, personally, just don't like the idea of them having gear which will allow them access to deal with threats (yes, I know the all access will let them go into the armoury). Kinda puts ERT out of question sometimes. I can see your point on the ERT gear and concede that. ERT armor is quite unnecessary for this job. I believe an armor vest and energy pistol would be adequate, if that's seen as over powered. Than it can be dumbed down to the rubber bullet pistol. And perhaps intervening would be...inappropriate, an evacuation method does indeed seem much more logical. I could even see eliminating 'all access' and just giving them command access and general access to the station, not into secure areas.
Maybe reduce from all access, give them basic access to all departments, and the bridge and meeting room. No weapons of any kind, barring a defensive taser or rubber bullet gun. See above arguement
I approve of this idea. But... Replace ERT suit with bulletproof vest Replace energy gun with rubber-bullet Colt. Include the position in the head whitelist maybe? One whole whitelist for a single position isn't very practical. See two arguments up That id is the only id with access to the AI's mainframe, this guy would be the highest target for any traitor. A guy for protection maybe? I like what gollee said, but have the centcom ID in a safe. This way if he needs to use his higher clearance he can but it can only be taken if things have started to wrong in command (not antags). I concede here, makes perfect sense.
Let me play devil's advocate for this. Firstly, let's talk about how over-powered it is. It is, for all pratical purposes, a constant NT Rep. They can do, say, anything. Looking over the Heads also means that Heads would be restricted. If they are looking over the Captain, who is looking over them? Second, this role would be taken advantage of terribly, if the player ever goes afk anywhere, and or gets killed. The bridge can't really stand another office. You also have a guy on station who is basically another Captain, who the crew can just pester more. Third, what would be the point of this? We already have a Captain, and assuming the Officer takes more time to get up to, it'd be pretty odd for NT to do this. You already have the IAA, who handles complaints of the crew, including Heads. As well, NT would have to know how dangerous the stations were. Why risk putting a guy, who would be a giant target for traitors, cultists, etc in a station already full of those people. It'd be basically like making the police chief go with police officers to an on-going gang fight. I note that Dea mentioned a few of thse subjects, for example the IAA and abuse of power, but stil. Yes, constant N.T. rep. A constant N.T. representative with orders not to do anything unless the heads take actions that directly damage N.T. interest. That's not open to interpretation, Captain decides to close down the bar? Good for him, HoS has his guys on patrols constantly? awesome, C.E. decides to wire the power directly into the grid? Amazing. This is a checks and balances system, the Liaison would be a counter to the Captain's power, because even Nanotrasen knows that power corrupts and that even high ranking people fuck up. This system works, it's used in real life and it's logical.
Secondly, This is why you have a fucking whitelist for it. IF the guy can RP, which I hope the hell he can since he's on a RP server and on the heads whitelist, he knows to head back to his office and go to bed. Again, this guy has no power unless something drastic happens. If the crew wants him to give them additional access, too fucking bad. Not in his job description It's all about opportunity in this argument. The I.A.A. doesn't have access to the bridge, doesn't hear the command channel. He's ignored because he's fucking useless, no-one takes him seriously. And there's two answers to the 'why put huge target on station' comment, I. N.T. views people as disposable, some mid-ranking fuck gets shot? whoop de fucking do. And two, as I stated earlier in this post, I suggest limiting his access even further, making him -less- of a target than the HoP or Captain. And no, It's not similar to the Chief going with police officers to a fight. It's like someone with a multi-billion credit station, that has tons of enemies sending someone to check on it. Why? This over-complexifies the Chain of Command, command process, leadership for what exactly? You're not even giving them executive power over anything; just weapons, tools and a loud voice for... Nothing. I'm sorry, but that's how I see it. Everything needs a purpose, an intent, a role set in stone. He would just be an over-glorified Internal Affairs Agent with furthered access and more tools. He would serve no purpose, would have no reason for existence. Now. If your issue is that IAAs are not being listened to, because 90% of the time they're chucklefuck-baldies, then phrase it as such, and I'll start moving ideas towards fixing that situation. This over complicates (Not complexifies, that's not a word) the chain of command in the same way that a justice system complicates the government of a nation, it's a checks and balances system that works in real life, there's no argument, logical or not that you can say this isn't true in. They've got a real purpose, a real reason. I address the 'Overpowered IAA agent' argument in an earlier comment
And I.A.A. agents are not listened to, in any bloody way. And there's no way to fix that without giving them real power, which is basically what I'm suggesting. Hell, you could even remove IAA as far as I'm concerned I LOVE new jobs! I think we should have TONS of new jobs. Yet I dont really see a need for this. Why does NT need three pairs of eyes on the station. Internal affairs agents already do the job this one is meant to do. The only difference is a fancy uniform and a firearm to wear around. Instruct heads, IAA does this people just have to listen to them. To me it just feels kind of forced. What I mean by that as it would be a job made because it sounds cool. Its a high tech research station, not a diplomatic embassy or a military prison station. From an IC point of view the only major things going on would be, at the most. Small bar fights. And at the least, arguments. Space law and SoP is only a small factor of what needs to be followed. I don't think Central would need to send a high ranking officer to be on the station every shift of every day. Seeing as internal affairs is already here. Once and a while, an inspection makes sense. But to have a fully devoted office for them, no. Its very cool and an interesting idea, I love new job ideas. But sadly, -1 Internal Affairs agents -don't- do this job, not effectively, not efficiently and not well in any manner of the world. The only difference is that these guys would be whitelisted, and better equipped to handle the situation and preform their jobs.
And yes, you are correct. It IS a research station. A research station owned by a company with it's own navy, PMCs, and what basically equates to it's own private fiefdom. As for the 'IC' argument, N.T. would want a representative to inform them of the status of the station. And one that has to power to correct any wrong doings, which the I.A.A. -doesn't have-. All he can do is essentially just whine to N.T. and have them yell at the Captain over the intercom. Who said he was high ranking? This would essentially just be someone who's been an IAA and has experience in the situation a 'head IAA' essentially. And yes, it does make perfect sense to have someone watch your incredibly expensive, frequently attacked high-tech research base that helps you make fucktons of money. This is equivalent to asking currently, "Who watches the captain" so I've elected to avoid answering it because it's obvious. Every other comment I've elected to ignore because they simply restate other comments or just say, "This sucks" without saying why.
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gollee
Lore Master
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Post by gollee on Jun 10, 2014 10:03:55 GMT
I said Who watches the watcher, as that is what this job makes me think, it is a control mechanism for the heads.
A possible alternative to this could be upping the role of the IAA, a shift about of their office, a Whitelist, an access increase and a name change.
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Post by deatacita on Jun 10, 2014 10:47:33 GMT
That was a suggestion by Nightmare, I'd be cool with that too.
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Mr. Majestic
Developer
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Posts: 485
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Post by Mr. Majestic on Jun 10, 2014 11:17:44 GMT
Let's see... Its obviously being pointed out in this thread that IA Agents need a remake. Big time.
So, I'mma thinkin' we can do just that, the remake can be this that Dea has put forth, only leave it IAA not la-la-son officer, the duties will have to be tweaked though, like instead of the lalason officer only watching the heads, it'll have to be the new IAA watching EVERYBODY. Also he can now act as a advisor and have a secure link (ahelp in IC) to NT or CC or something from his office for situation advisory. I dunno. Just suggestions. The IAA office gets remade to accomdate one person and to be more secure, and MAYBE a change of location.
I for one from the first time of finding out about IAA thought it waskinda dumb. Any random bloke can play a position meant to be professional and realistic, not to mention RP sensitive (IAA's required to be "robot-like" due to interactions with the crew leading to possible cloud in judgement).
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Post by Skull132 on Jun 10, 2014 11:27:05 GMT
You do not give an advisory role executive power, and here is why. The captain has supreme authority over a vessel for situations which do not fall in the confines of any set of rules, regulations or laws. This authority grants the captain the ability to conduct action, and exercise potentially extreme measures in a situation that requires them, with the end goal of ensuring the safety of the crew, station and equipment. Adding an adviser with executive authority will directly undermine and remove this authority from the captain in a state of emergency.
NSS Aurora is not a nation. NanoTrasen, yes, that is a pseudo-national identity. But NSS Aurora is to be considered along the lines of a ship or an airplane. I read an article a few days ago in Estonian, titled "X things you may not have known about flying in an airplane," basically a conglomerate article regarding interesting notes provided by employees of different airlines. From what I read, the captain of a commercial airplane in flight has the ability to indefinately arrest someone, take a will, etc. This is to allow the captain to overcome any situation which falls outside the confines of the law.
This power should stay with the Captain of NSS Aurora. It should not be placed under threat unless Central Command feels necessary to directly intervene, at which point they'd send a dude over with direct instructions on how to proceed.
However. There is one difference between reality, and the game. Accountability. The captain of a ship/airplane can theoretically execute any course of action he deems necessary to ensure in the safety of his crew, ship and mission. However, he is judged upon arrival at home. And if the means are not justified then the situation, then he is tried as a criminal.
That is the only thing missing from here.
From the way I'm seeing it, you are pushing to apply a blunt-force solution to a very delicate and complicated issue. If IAAs want to be listened to, then they need to unfuck themselves first. The singular reason why they aren't listened to is because they do not communicate. I have never, as a head of staff, seen an IAA come up to me, and ask me anything. Instead, 90% of them just do their own thing, and then complain when they aren't being payed attention to.
Well, though luck. Learn to do your job, first. I will gladly, OOCly, force any heads being idiots towards IAAs to pay respect if I see the IAA themselves make an effort. They can't just barge into an office, and say: "This, this, and this is wrong. Fuck you, fix it, or I'm filing CC." Not how it works. What they should do is say, "Hello, could we work out an inspection of your department and a review of your actions?" If a head says no, then contact an admin. Once review is conducted, an IAA would provide input, and potentially file an initial report to CC. Next step, wait, observe, and conduct another review over a period of an hour or so. Purpose, to take note of the changes in the previously noted situation. If the changes are positive, then good. If not, contact CC for alternatives.
That is how the process should go. If you have someone who just has the power to remove people from command, other than the captain, then it will. End. Badly.
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Post by Depandio on Jun 10, 2014 12:18:02 GMT
I would like to see something like this, if only to have a pseudo-department to consolidate the detective and IAA into a neater, investigation-focused 'fun police' department answering to the captain. Treating the Detective like security-lite has always rubbed me the wrong way.
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Post by Skull132 on Jun 10, 2014 12:37:10 GMT
I would like to see something like this, if only to have a pseudo-department to consolidate the detective and IAA into a neater, investigation-focused 'fun police' department answering to the captain. Treating the Detective like security-lite has always rubbed me the wrong way. Nothing is stopping you from playing fun-police as a detective. NOTHING. It's just that the majority of the detectives feel like their duties are to play a Noir-esque grizzled "badass", who speaks with a gruff voice and sits in the bar for the majority of the shift.
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mrimatool
Lore Developer
Your guy, Toolio <3
Posts: 703
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Post by mrimatool on Jun 10, 2014 12:51:13 GMT
Damm Dea you get really defensive when criticized. Skull is speaking complete sense here and you insult him and others over their mastery of the English language? Real mature. If you really want an adviser maybe work on making an XO role, who can advise the captain and take over when he's gone, oh wait there is a Head of Personnel for that, please Dea calm down, it's only a game and this is only a forum, if you didn't want criticism why did you put this here? We're all friends here, and we could work to make changes if the current system isn't working, as Skull has suggested. I have never been turned away by heads as IAA because I act formal and polite and tell them I'm not there to make their jobs harder, I'm there to help.
Sent from my HTC Desire 300
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farcry11
Moderator
God Emperor of Pleb Kind
Strictly Platonic
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Post by farcry11 on Jun 10, 2014 13:36:01 GMT
Damm Dea you get really defensive when criticized. Skull is speaking complete sense here and you insult him and others over their mastery of the English language? Real mature. If you really want an adviser maybe work on making an XO role, who can advise the captain and take over when he's gone, oh wait there is a Head of Personnel for that, please Dea calm down, it's only a game and this is only a forum, if you didn't want criticism why did you put this here? We're all friends here, and we could work to make changes if the current system isn't working, as Skull has suggested. I have never been turned away by heads as IAA because I act formal and polite and tell them I'm not there to make their jobs harder, I'm there to help. Sent from my HTC Desire 300 Not really defensive, she's just rebutting arguments. It's part of debating a point. And it's not as though your comments really promoted intelligent discussion at all. They literally were "I hate this and it's horrible" without really elaborating.
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Post by Skull132 on Jun 10, 2014 13:42:32 GMT
Cry and Tool, considering that this is a topic for discussion, I'm about to start removing replies if we don't get back on target. As you're cluttering.
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Mr. Majestic
Developer
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Posts: 485
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Post by Mr. Majestic on Jun 10, 2014 14:03:23 GMT
Somebody should make a IAA improvement suggestion thread. Where err'body can say what the think must change about the IAA.
Then we can have this thread for the lalason offica alone. Or something.
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robotik
Surgeon
http://puu.sh/1AJEA
Posts: 86
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Post by robotik on Jun 10, 2014 14:03:55 GMT
This sounds like a ridiculous idea and gollee has made a fair point: who DOES watch the watcher? Is he some voice of God and the heavens above where he can sit back, and suddenly, start voicing commands to Heads who are ALREADY familiar with the current state of the situation, who are then expected to do as he or she says? We don't need a power-hungry chucklefuck onboard.
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farcry11
Moderator
God Emperor of Pleb Kind
Strictly Platonic
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Post by farcry11 on Jun 10, 2014 14:05:28 GMT
Yes, back on target. I still like the idea, and I propose that it replace IA Agents. No one listens to the IAs, and their presence is almost like a running joke- they're usually thought of as simply an annoyance, getting in the way of the real work.
People, however, would sit up and pay attention to a figure like the Liaison Officer. He carries more power, is more directly tied to Central Command, and is generally more imposing than an IA. This would more strongly encourage people to actually listen to the person telling them that they need to stop doing dumb shit.
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farcry11
Moderator
God Emperor of Pleb Kind
Strictly Platonic
Posts: 1,347
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Post by farcry11 on Jun 10, 2014 14:08:03 GMT
This sounds like a ridiculous idea and gollee has made a fair point: who DOES watch the watcher? We don't need a power-hungry chucklefuck onboard. CentComm "watches the watcher", and the watcher watches the heads- who can often turn in to power hungry chucklefucks. This is merely a role to keep power hungry chucklefucks in check, to some capacity.
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Post by deatacita on Jun 10, 2014 14:53:40 GMT
Damm Dea you get really defensive when criticized. Skull is speaking complete sense here and you insult him and others over their mastery of the English language? Real mature. If you really want an adviser maybe work on making an XO role, who can advise the captain and take over when he's gone, oh wait there is a Head of Personnel for that, please Dea calm down, it's only a game and this is only a forum, if you didn't want criticism why did you put this here? We're all friends here, and we could work to make changes if the current system isn't working, as Skull has suggested. I have never been turned away by heads as IAA because I act formal and polite and tell them I'm not there to make their jobs harder, I'm there to help. Sent from my HTC Desire 300 I wasn't intending to be defensive, and English indeed is not my native language (Far from it actually). I was not insulting him, I was correcting his language in a hope that he would, in the future use it properly. I wanted criticism, I simply rebutted the points as I saw fit. I meant none of it offensively, I don't mean it disrespectfully. But it's really not my problem if you misinterpreted my words.
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Post by deatacita on Jun 10, 2014 14:58:56 GMT
This sounds like a ridiculous idea and gollee has made a fair point: who DOES watch the watcher? Is he some voice of God and the heavens above where he can sit back, and suddenly, start voicing commands to Heads who are ALREADY familiar with the current state of the situation, who are then expected to do as he or she says? We don't need a power-hungry chucklefuck onboard. You obviously didn't read through this entire thread. I already explained a solution to -every- point you made here.
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