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Post by Skull132 on Jul 10, 2014 6:15:05 GMT
the basic premise is this:
Consolidate the Detective and IAA into something more manageble, and something with an actual outline and purpose.
Issues that I want this idea to address:
the handling of normal IAAs, their handling of themselves;
the handling of a detective, their handling of themselves;
the chain of command faux-paus that exists for IAAs.
How I wish to address these:
Effectively, remove the IAA and the Detective from the job listing and in their stead, create two new jobs that are branched seperately and away from the main Security Officers and Warden. However, they still adhere to the Head of Security, and fall under his jurisdiction. This little sect would be known as the Security Investigative Division (SID for future reference in this thread), or whatever we go with at the end of the day.
SID would fulfill the following tasks:
to investigate any breaches of Space Law, should they warrant it;
to investigate any breaches of Standard Operating Procedure, should they warrant it;
to assess crew as is necessary, and provide neutral information to Command Staff/Central Command.
The two jobs that I would wish to outline:
Forensic Expert
This is the individual responsible for conducting the forensic parts of an investigation. He would be equipped with tools required to perform his tasks, such as scanners, autopsy tables, whatever.
Internal Adviser
This is the individual responsible for conducting any investigations which are not related to direct breaches of Space Law, or criminal activity out of their own merit. While the investigations may lead to criminal charges being pursued, that would not serve as their start-state.
All SID members would have access to security, medical and employment (potentially, may change) records to conduct their tasks.
The IA would be implanted for loyalty, however, would retain adherance to the present chain of command.
Security net access would be granted.
Access to equipment for arrest would not be granted.
Powers to arrest would not be granted.
Thoughts, opinions, etcetera?
The way I see it, we either cut the IAA and Detective out of sec, or we put them both into sec. I prefer the latter.
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Mr. Majestic
Developer 
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Posts: 485 
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Post by Mr. Majestic on Jul 10, 2014 6:46:25 GMT
We still need a detective though. Unless you want to remove the concept of a officer trained in forenics entirely (Sam proved that a detective is infact just a ordinary officer with extra training if forensics and such a long while ago on another thread, and I can vouch for the fact that detectives DO perform arrests and whatever).
So, seeing as that is what you wish to do. The detective will no longer get a firearm, a pair of cuffs and a flash? Now all Barry's training in security matters and arrest procedures and what not is for naught ;-;
All that said, this sounds nice. Might be bad for some characters though. A lot of players enjoy detective the way it is now, you know with his own spacious office to conduct forensic investigations, consolidate reports and poke around with dead bodies without being disturbed. Some characters that only play detective are very social or lone wolf or whatever special traits they have- merging their department with that of the "robot" (I'll note again that a IAA's job requires him/her to be a neutral party inorder to judge situations properly, thus meaning interactions with the crew that are not related to the Agent's duty on the station are kept to a minimum... Resulting in some IAAs being like robots) won't be fun for them.
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Post by Skull132 on Jul 10, 2014 7:19:18 GMT
Allow me to get defencive here.
Powers to arrest would mean powers to arrest without a warrant (or more percisely, to hold without a warrant). This is a power that the security officers have, they can arrest you upon seeing a vilation of Space Law. A detective cannot, should not. If a warrant is issued, then fair enough.
Point two, your post brought up a point that I hate seeing and is one of the exact reasons for this post. You assumed your weapon was there to assist in an arrest. Invalid. Majorly invalid. The weapon of a detective is purely a tool meant for self-defence. It does not leave the holster unless there is a potential threat to the detective himself (his well-being, not whether or not the arrestee can get away), it does not get aimed at a human unless the human in question is a tangible threat to the detective's well-being, it does not get discharged unless there is a threat of immediate harm to the detective's well-being, and there is no other alternative.
Third, you assumed what I was going to be doing to the map. I understand the necessity for privacy, and to think I would not provide is invalid. The forensic expert requires a work area designated for himself. He will receive it.
EDIT: Oh and yes. It would replace a security officer with forensics training. It'd replace him with an actual field agent with forensics training.
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mrimatool
Lore Developer 
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Post by mrimatool on Jul 10, 2014 7:33:02 GMT
I like this, although i'll miss the detective Job.
I do think a lot of people will dislike this majorly.
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Mr. Majestic
Developer
Majestic is the name, majestic is the game.
Posts: 485
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Post by Mr. Majestic on Jul 10, 2014 7:34:59 GMT
I see, never stated that I thought the firearm was for arrest purposes though... It just seems that you are going to remove it? Or not? I don't know. It was just up there with all the things I thought would be taken away with the new job.
EDIT: I was also under the impression that the bringing together of the two jobs would result in sharing a office or some map adaptation... But this was just my impression.
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Post by Mewoykyinuis on Jul 10, 2014 7:58:03 GMT
I'd like this, even if it's in association with the Detective. One of my favorite things is Forensics, but the spot is never open, because Johnny Noirshirt wants to wave a gun around and smoke all day.
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Post by Skull132 on Jul 10, 2014 12:11:12 GMT
Also, allow me to make a point: it is my opinion that the duties of both jobs are ill-focused, whether this is the result of focus lacking in their actual tasks, or the players themselves losing this focus does not matter. What matters is that a job with lost focus, specially when we are talking about personnel who: are equipped with a near-lethal weapon, or have presumed authority, will remain the cause of issues.
The issues are anything from detectives performing arrests/conducting security duties, to IAAs failing to realize their role in the grand scheme of things, overplaying it, and then getting stomped on because they annoyed absoloutely everyone involved.
It is my hope that through this, we can reconsolidate and refocus the duties of both jobs, and perhaps even acheive a result of these being something more than "gun toting badass 2.0" and "annoying git who likes to abuse security net 2.0".
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Post by nikolaithebeast on Jul 11, 2014 2:43:23 GMT
Mmm...I like this. Detective players will probably be pissed that they have their gun removed, but I'd like the fucking hand gun removed from play, due to it getting stolen, abused, and the fact that I am 90% sure rubber bullets stick in the wound and cause horrible, horrible damage.
I'd give them flashes or something, however, just in case. Those, can be found nearly anywhere, anyway.
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bluesp34r
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Post by bluesp34r on Jul 11, 2014 3:10:06 GMT
Detective is actually my favorite job...
Well, if this Forensics Expert is going to get the same tools, a similar process of investigation (walking into a room, taping it off and scanning everything and what not) then I guess I'm okay with it...
Also, fuck the IAA. I wouldn't mind if they merged together, as they're both investigative jobs.
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Post by moom241 on Jul 11, 2014 5:30:49 GMT
I don't really like this idea, because it'd put the IA under a certain departments jurisdiction. The entire point of the IAA is that they can investigate any department without anyone but the captain being able to interfere with the investigation.
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Post by PumpkingSlice on Jul 11, 2014 5:56:07 GMT
Technically they can't just barge in without consent of the department in case of health and safety. I like this change entirely, it focuses clearly what the roles are. The only thing I'll miss is crushing down a bad IAA as HoS, whilst they try to order me because I'm not the captain.
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Post by Skull132 on Jul 11, 2014 6:11:30 GMT
I don't really like this idea, because it'd put the IA under a certain departments jurisdiction. The entire point of the IAA is that they can investigate any department without anyone but the captain being able to interfere with the investigation. They can still execute this function as they are able to now. Simply add in a few notations to the SOP. What you are hinting at is the fact that they would somehow be hindered by the fact that now fall under security. Well, they've always had the limitations of any head of staff being able to deny them entry, unless they have Central Command authority, Captain authority, or the head of staff's permission to back up their conduct of an investigation (technically speaking, a head of staff can boot, if not have arrested, an IAA who barges into their workgrounds, waving around an investigation that is not authorized by Central Command, the Captain or the head of staff themselves, as such action can directly interfere with the work of the head of staff in question, and their department). In fact, this would make the process easier for the IAs. And here's how: the authorization could now be granted by the Head of Security as well. Since Aurora is often uncaptained, this would provide an added chance to take command sanctioned action. If security falls under threat from an investigation, obviously the Captain or CC would have to authorize, or the majority of command staff, minus HoS. Further more, a good HoS never interferes with an investigation. Forensic, criminal, or otherwise. |
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Post by moom241 on Jul 11, 2014 6:31:49 GMT
Well, what I'm fearing is that should the HoS, or security come under scrutiny from an IA he could simply order them to stop, and while that shouldn't stop the IA, it would definitely muddy things up quite a bit. If an IA should find some evidence or another on the HoS, the HoS could simply have them fired, and, depending on the command staff present, could totally get away with it.
I'm not afraid of good HoS's, I'm afraid of the bad ones.
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Post by Skull132 on Jul 11, 2014 7:08:15 GMT
Well, what I'm fearing is that should the HoS, or security come under scrutiny from an IA he could simply order them to stop, and while that shouldn't stop the IA, it would definitely muddy things up quite a bit. If an IA should find some evidence or another on the HoS, the HoS could simply have them fired, and, depending on the command staff present, could totally get away with it. I'm not afraid of good HoS's, I'm afraid of the bad ones. Under standard assumptions, it would not get muddy. The moment Security or the Head of Security become under investigation from the IA, the Head of Security's power over the IA is removed, and he will answer directly to the Command Staff, or the Captain, depending on the situation. Also, two notes. Proper SOP dictates that any demotions and so on be run through the HoP or, in the absence of, the Captain. This will make the decision you speak of more difficult to accomplish. Second note is the fact that what you speak of can, and has happened to IAAs before, and will keep happening. The key words are, "Depending on Command Staff present." All of it depends on the individuals involved. |
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Post by PumpkingSlice on Jul 11, 2014 7:09:51 GMT
A head can not order someone to stop doing their job unless it is clearly in violation of the law or is a threat to the station or crew. If a head does order out of these bounds, they get arrested.
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Chaznoodles
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Post by Chaznoodles on Jul 11, 2014 9:23:23 GMT
As long as he's got a Detective title, is k.
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Post by Skull132 on Jul 11, 2014 9:38:34 GMT
As long as he's got a Detective title, is k. Why is the title so important? Detectives barely exist now-a-days, the word itself is getting old, and outplayed by others, such as "(field) agent," "forensic technician," "investigator," "special investigator." |
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Post by nikolaithebeast on Jul 11, 2014 23:32:27 GMT
As long as he's got a Detective title, is k. Why is the title so important? Detectives barely exist now-a-days, the word itself is getting old, and outplayed by others, such as "(field) agent," "forensic technician," "investigator," "special investigator." It will never touch Private Dick, however. |
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Post by Casperf1 on Jul 12, 2014 0:17:47 GMT
Plus one for this idea. I like the removal of the whole 'noir detective gets a gun' situation that we currently have. And I'd like to see Technicians as a much more civilian-oriented role, potentially not even getting a flash and merely assisting security in investigations.
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Post by Mewoykyinuis on Jul 12, 2014 20:24:54 GMT
"The Detective's job is to investigate the remains of any crime, identify the perpetrator, and then ask Security to arrest them for you. They have no brig access because they are supposed to be an evidence collector and investigator, not a Security Officer or Warden."
This is rarely seen. Detectives do not handle arrests, unless a warrant is gained in relation to a case, in modern times. Detectives that come across a CIP, do not arrest, they detain and call for police forces. Detectives handle interrogations, investigations of crimes, and determination of why the crime happened.
DETECTIVES HANDLE THE "WHY"
Forensic Technicians do /not/ come in contact with the suspects, or the victims. They are there to process crime scenes. They gather fingerprints, weapons used, trace materials. They gather evidence, basically, and put together the picture of what happened at the crime scene. They figure out what happened, and how it happened.
FORENSIC TECHNICIANS HANDLE THE "HOW AND WHAT"
The two are not the same, and the reasoning for why they are both in the same slot is BYOND me. In modern policing agencies, the two are used. With Detectives being promoted officers that have shown skill in investigation, while FTs are outside forces, that are specially trained in forensics.
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